Those are my questions to the Minister. By contrast, a complaint against the police is dealt with by the Police Complaints Authority which results in a public report with reasons and may be subject to judicial review proceedings. 1018 A complaint against the security service is dealt with by a closed tribunal hearing that gives no reasons for its decision and is statutorily exempt from judicial review proceedings. The Government came to a different conclusion, so it is right to try to ensure that the Bill is in the form that it should be. We shall ensure that the leaflets have valid currency in Scotland. Friend the Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael) in saying that, especially with the crimes to which I have referred, police should be assisted by intelligence officers where appropriate. There is a dilemma. Has it been discussed with chief constables north of the border and, if so, what was their reaction to it? We shall have to get the head of NCIS to send its man back to his force, wherever that is, to get an investigation instigated there." It would not be sensible for members of the service to be subject to different disciplinary procedures for work under different functions when the distinction between, for example, terrorism and organised crime may be extremely blurred. Indeed, one can scarcely imagine more difficult circumstances. The Authority also considers incidents of death and serious injury caused by Police action. They have had to incorporate an amendment which refers to "a chief constable", it being understood that that chief constable would be the head of the National Criminal Intelligence Service. Order. This authority is basically a panel headed by a retired judge who hears the misconduct or inactivity on any case’s complaints against police. Member for Penrith and the Border (Mr. Maclean). The authority will say, "Oh well, the individual concerned was not a police officer. But the member of the public may be completely unaware. They include eavesdropping activity, in which both Security Service and police personnel were present, and similar activity undertaken as part of an inquiry agreed with the police but where the police were not present. I invite the right hon. While I listened carefully to what the right hon. It is a cause of pride that the machinery has worked well. Not everybody is satisfied with it, but it is in extensive use and is provided for in statute. | Report other issues | © UK Parliament, The Minister of State, Home Office (Mr. David Maclean). If the proposed leaflet was discussed in Committee, did his officials discuss it with Scottish chief constables? would be a mistake to assume that, just because the Security Service will be acting in support of the police—as well as other law enforcement agencies—the same systems of accountability should apply to both bodies. We're headed by a Judge and don't answer to the Police, the Government or anyone else about our findings. The House of Commons works on the basis of the ballot box and elections. It is completely independent, and is free of government influence. Like most constituency Members, I regard it with something of a jaundiced eye. With only minor modifications, the Minister accepted Labour's proposed mechanism to ensure that a chief officer of police sets the task, agrees the system and in effects acts as the guardian at the gate—an important step forward. Only then does the PCA become involved. I hope that the Government will give some careful thought to how the issues can be resolved, not least so that the Police Complaints Authority and the Security Service Tribunal have some guidance on how to approach the matter. If the Minister agrees with us on the area of concern to which we should apply our minds in the future, the intention of Parliament will be clear. The process that I have described is not dissimilar to the standard procedure for complaints against police officers. At a recent High Court hearing in Scotland, a prominent member of a loyalist paramilitary organisation, who will be known to some hon. With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Bill's provisions may initially involve a small number of people, but it introduces a significant change from a system in which policing activity is undertaken only by accountable police forces, with a structure of discipline and accountability and a well-known procedure for complaints. I am sorry that the hon. In some debates, it was clear that we shared a common aspiration but experienced some difficulty in giving legislative form to the precise definitions that we wanted. That is the same as now and the procedure is straightforward. … It seems that the hon. By law we're also notified of and may investigate incidents where Police have caused death or serious injury. If you have a complaint about the Police, you can come to us. The only answer to this problem—as suggested by the hon. 18 of 2016 491. I now give way to the hon. If the police are unable to go further because it was not one of their officers, they can issue sufficient leaflets to point complainants in the appropriate direction. Under the Bill, Security Service personnel will not arrest people or undertake such normal police operations, but many sorts of complaint can arise from the other level of work in which they would be involved—even analysis. He may just assume that the person concerned is a police officer and he will not know where to go. Member for Cardiff, South and Penarth (Mr. Michael). It became clear in Committee that hon. west of Scotland, an employee who is confronted by an irate employer who has been questioned about an employee's suspected involvement in gun running to Belfast and elsewhere might face dismissal. If someone comes to the police with a complaint, they have a duty to investigate it unless it is totally frivolous or vexatious. I hope that in concluding the debate the Minister will agree that this important issue should be kept under scrutiny and that we should seek the best possible way to deal with it. Some public protections surround that organisation too, but they are not the same and they were not designed to cover the circumstances that arise in dealing with crime and with the greater contact with the public that such activities against crime could bring about. 1027 Friend the Minister to examine one loophole in the existing arrangement. In jurisdictions in which review boards select only a sample of cases to review, it will be difficult to ensure that all civilian complaints receive equal treatment. The nature of the problem is illustrated when one realises that the National Criminal Intelligence Service, which is a police agency—although it is run by the Home Office by a chief constable seconded for the purpose—does not exist in statute. additional information from the Police Officer heading the police force in the UT that may have a material bearing on the case. We are totally independent. Is the Minister saying that, if there was a joint operation in the unusual circumstances that he describes and the police were satisfied that a complaint did not relate to their officers, information would be given to the complainant in the form of the leaflet, which palpably draws the attention of the complainant to the fact that the complaint, if it is to be directed at anybody, is to be directed at members, albeit unnamed, of the Security Service? 1025 15:05. I assume that it is more likely that the complainant will not know where to direct his or her complaint. Any complaint that is not trivial or vexatious will be examined. Indeed, the position described by the hon. Such a complexity currently exists because the Security Service is beginning to assist the police service. Nobody is above the law whether he is a police officer or a common man everyone comes under the law. Gentleman to speculate on the role of an intelligence officer who participates in a surveillance operation with a colleague who is a police Members of the Security Service are subject to the law, and if a criminal offence has been committed, the police will investigate. The directions of the Authority shall ordinarily be binding, unless for the reasons to be recorded in writing, Govt. Gentleman is dealt with not only in this new clause, but in amendment No. However, there are the reservations to which the Minister rightly referred. The Government have already had to resort to a formula to refer to the National Criminal Intelligence Service. I see no harm in taking on board the hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr. Shepherd) might learn something from reading our debates in Committee, because we were trying then, as now, to tease out the precise definitions that could be put in legislation and Ministers' precise understandings so that both the intention of Parliament and the legislation were clear. I may not have described a solution in such a manner that the right hon. I am not sure that the mechanism suggested in the new clause is the right one. Perhaps there could be further discussion with the PCA and the Security Service Tribunal and commissioner to find a way to ensure that there is no hole into which matters could fall and that the whole thing does not simply become a device through which a damaging disclosure could occur. If a potential complainant suspects the involvement of the Security Service, he or she can complain direct to the tribunal. As I said, members of the Security Service are not above the law. At some point, we may come to the question of accountability and complaints in relation to the customs. The Chairman and members of the Authority shall be appointed by the Governor after consultation with the Minister. The end result is that a complainant is not left without someone to complain to. We have stated publicly—and I believe that my right hon. That would entail the loss of the current tremendous flexibility. We are talking about relatively few people. This place was shown at its best during our Committee debates; Members tried to come up with solutions, not problems. The power of the Police Complaints Authority are as under: (a) Register a First Information Report; and/or The NYC Civilian Complaint Review Board (CCRB) is the oversight agency of the largest police force in the country.A board of the New York City government, the CCRB is tasked with investigating, mediating, and prosecuting complaints of misconduct on the part of the New York City Police Department. It may be that those in the other place will find refinements to add to it, but we shall have to consider those when we see the proposed amendments. Gentleman anticipates what I was about to say, which is that that was the argument I put to the Prime Minister and the Minister of State in an exchange on the wireless yesterday. Gentleman makes a valid point, and I shall certainly consider that possibility. After all, it could inquire whether the Security Service was involved, pursue the complaint and then go back to the complainant—as it would with any genuine complaint—and say that not only did no police officer act improperly but that it was satisfied that no officer of any other agency was involved. The hon. He may suspect that there has been Security Service involvement or he may not; but it turns out that Security Service personnel were involved, and the police reply to him that no police officer was found in the investigation to have been involved in what went wrong. to the police that it was a Security Service matter, will the police tell the complainant that the Security Service is involved and direct him to the tribunal? The hon. Does the Minister regard the police as having a duty to hand over the forms without explanation, or is there simply a possibility of them doing that? When they tell the complainant that a police officer was not involved, will they give him any idea at all of the person to whom he should complain? In Committee, we suggested other ways of dealing with accountability procedures. (a)investigate police action; (b)undertake inquiries into, or audit of, any aspect of police action; (c)ensure transparency and accountability by police officers in the handling of criminal matters, in accordance with the principles of the Constitution; The position is further complicated by the fact that the Security Service's main partner in dealing with organised crime—the body that will task it—is the National Criminal Intelligence Service. The Security Service has a separate system for dealing with complaints. – Any police officer appointed in accordance with this chapter shall have the authority in all cases in which the rights of the appointing railroad are involved to exercise within this state all the powers of a special police officer, including the powers of arrest and the carrying of firearms, for the reasonable purpose of his office. No, but that does not mean that Security Service personnel will not be involved in situations that also involve police officers and that could give rise to a complaint. How are we to match those two systems or ensure that the general public know to whom to complain when they find that some action by the Security Service, in pursuit of this legislation, results in damage or harm, whether through carelessness, abuse of power or excess of zeal? § Not in those circumstances. There is less of a rush to put on the statute book the facility to deal with organised crime if the resources may be needed to deal with terrorism in the mean time. Many people can put different interpretations on the fact that the tribunal and the commissioner have not upheld a single complaint since 1989 and have not disclosed the number of complaints which have been made to them, but I am concerned that the loophole will disadvantage a great many people. It is one of the things that could have been done if progress on the Bill had been deferred. [v] Police officers can investigate Cognizable offences without the magistrate’s orders. I do not have total confidence in the form that I have chosen, although, having listened to the debate, I genuinely believe that it is better than the leaflet procedure. When a complainant receives a leaflet, he will wonder why it has been sent to him. 1026 need to be satisfied that, in so far as the complaints bodies are effective, the complaint has been examined and found to be either justified or not justified. Its regulations are compiled in Title 38-A of the New York City Rules Any person—this will be of interest to the hon. Those two separate avenues will continue. But this was an unusual case. I am sure that I was deeply missed, especially by the Minister of State, the right hon. The potential for muddle between both disciplines in a joint operation is considerable. The tribunal's remit extends to any inquiries by the Security Service that have been initiated since November 1989—when the tribunal came into being—and any inquiries that were initiated before November 1989 where no decision had been taken to discontinue them in the intervening period. The right hon. I question whether we should proceed with this Bill and the new clauses and amendments today in the aftermath of Friday's terrible bombing. If there is a joint operation and an individual makes a complaint to the Security Service Tribunal, it is possible that, under the current legislation, had that individual been the subject of a Security Service file that existed before December 1989, neither the tribunal nor the commissioner could investigate the complaint. We may be able to debate such issues in a calm and relaxed atmosphere, but while attempting to execute a warrant for the interference of property, adrenalin runs very high. unique in a democracy, of the security services. Gentleman said, we are currently in that scenario because of the help that the Security Service is giving the Metropolitan police in leading the fight against terrorism in Britain. One is fairly overt, with the police officer being subject to the police complaints procedure, but the other protects the intelligence officer with a great panoply of secrecy, with the tribunal and the commissioner as the very last resort. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed said, I am afraid that I was not convinced by it. In those circumstances, most people would think it sensible for all the energies of the Security Service to be used to fight terrorism. That is how I interpreted the hon. I am not being facetious when I suggest that it might be an idea to give Members copies of leaflets. will depend on a variety of factors, but I think that it would be wrong for us to deny ourselves the option of using the service's capability against serious crime as and when it can make a contribution. We cannot put such a Bill on the statute book without ensuring that there is proper accountability and a proper procedure for the public's complaints to be dealt with in a fair and efficient way. Question accordingly negatived. The new clause envisages that other agencies apart from the Security Service could be involved. I accept that it is difficult to think of a scenario in which the Security Service will be so up front that a complaint is likely, but if, say, misconduct occurs during surveillance—for example, assault—the police will record a complaint relating to the conduct of the operation and will then investigate. I have suggested to the Minister—formally in the new clause and less formally in what I have been telling him—that permitting the Police Complaints Authority to have a role in ensuring that a complaint is processed right the way through will ensure that the involvement of Security Service personnel will not serve as a route by which members of the public are simply fobbed off and not provided with the certainty that their complaints are being dealt with. We argued that it must make express provision for the police to retain the lead in the fight against crime. At no level can we preclude the possibility of a complaint being made. That already happens under the service's existing functions, particularly in relation to counter-terrorism, counter-proliferation and counter-espionage. That becomes all the more important when, as a result of the Bill, the Security Service is drawn into joint working with the police and other law enforcement agencies. I thought that I had made it clear that the energies of the Security Service have been, are being and will continue to be used to combat terrorism. I thank the Minister for making that clear. I therefore hope that, in response to our debates, here and in Committee, the Minister will be willing to assure us that the Government intend to enable proper complaints to be properly investigated. It is in the nature of the Security Service that it cannot have its personnel readily identified because otherwise its ability to do a wide range of its important work would be fatally compromised. Is there some risk that the complaint will fall between the two and will not be adequately investigated? Still, it is transparent and accountable, and this House is ultimately responsible for it. For complaints relating to action against property, the tribunal will involve the commissioner. Action can take place there and the Police Complaints Authority can become involved. The IRA has already given a signal that it is afraid of the ballot box and of elections. "Here is a leaflet," they will say, "which may be of assistance to you.". Gentleman agree that the situation has undoubtedly changed since Second Reading and the Committee stage, in which we both took part? of the NCT of Delhi decides to disagree with the findings of the What grievance procedure is there through which to pursue a legitimate complaint against such harassment? We can certainly give a signal, as we have over the past few days, that no stone will be left unturned in the search for those responsible for last Friday's outrage. At the present time, it is possible that members of the public will come up against a member of the Security Service when they think that they are dealing with a police complaint. I would regard that as a duty. I am certain that, if he had been a member, every matter relating to Scotland would have been raised, and we could have discussed his honourable career as a red cap. They will act under the Director-General of the Security Service, carrying out a function that the National Criminal Intelligence Service has agreed can be carried out. What will happen if, in a joint operation against organised crime involving the police, NCIS and the Security Service, something goes wrong? Members must collect their thoughts and make only one contribution. It is a golden recipe for muddle and confusion. The Minister accepted, as we do, that the public should have a simple means of raising an issue that gives rise to concern—one in which they feel they have been threatened, intimidated or otherwise wronged. All members of the tribunal are senior members of the legal profession. At the end of the day, the public The role of the Independent Police Complaints Commission The importance of having transparency and accountability amongst law enforcement is the one of the key principles in the formation of the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). 1024 That could lead to questions at his place of work and many problems when the operation became known, even though it was a mistake—the individual had nothing to do with it. If it is the responsibility of the chief officer to investigate the complaint, he must decide with reference to statutory guidelines whether the complaint should be referred to the Police Complaints Authority for supervision of the investigation. There has been agreement that the Security Service can bring valuable skills to bear in combating that menace, in support of the law enforcement agencies. The tribunal and commissioner have full powers to call on any official documents or information that they may need. 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